Pirates of the Computer.

I have started writing a blog(in swedish, if you are curios I migh translate them later) recenlty were I express my opinions on software piracy(that, and my growing interest to research about the subject is what has been holding me back from logging on to PP today, and I was barley online yesterday).

I would like to hear your subjects on the matter before revealing my own though.

(Yea, I know the irony of talking about pirated software when our only common interest is playing software about pirates)

Piratus wrote:I would like to hear your subjects on the matter before revealing my own though.

It's kind of a complex topic, with many aspects. Is illegal file sharing and copyright issues what you meant by software piracy?

Pishkirlin wrote:

Piratus wrote:I would like to hear your subjects on the matter before revealing my own though.

It's kind of a complex topic, with many aspects. Is illegal file sharing and copyright issues what you meant by software piracy?

Yes.

I am using Linux and this is free OS with free software. One can live with free software but there's lack of free games for example or some specific programs like tools for flash animations, CAD and so...

In my opinion computer literacy should be granted to everyone and personal use of software should be free and only commercial use should be upon payment.

As for entertainment industry (music, movies), here things are a bit more complicated. I am totally against huge incomes made by producers and so-called artists for all the crap they daily throw at us. They exploit mass media and their brainwashing creating fetishes we worship not because they are good but rather because they are dominant. All the hits of summer 2009 have been already decided by a narrow group of people who control media. Even alternative music is actually mass culture. The music we listen sucks. It's repetitive and dull. So are the movies we watch.
I believe one should have the chance to try everything for free once. If you think a product deserve your money, you should buy it. Otherwise you shouldn't be able to enjoy it twice. Anyway I have no sympathy for those who consume crap. Stupidity should have a higher cost.

Very good points. But I belive internet will change all of that, piracy or no piracy. The internet is accesable by everyone, so any "mediamaker" can make himself showed and eventually thoose will compete the others away. The widespread of piracy today will only make it harder for the good ones to make money tommorow since we the public will keep grabbing it for free!

As for entertainment industry (music, movies), here things are a bit more complicated. I am totally against huge incomes made by producers and so-called artists for all the crap they daily throw at us.

According to me this is no excuse. Games and music have free versions wich you can use to evaluate the product. And the power of the internet means you can probably find a dozen of reviews to check rather than to seed material to someone who never plan to pay for himself.

Don't get me wrong, all "media pirates" are not bad, some really pays for themselves if they like something, but the good ones are in minority, both according to my own experience and according to statsistics.

One example is a game called "World of Goo" developed by 3 men. The game is completley without any DMR, it is loved by critics and yet more people connect to the games servers everyday than the number of people who actually bought it.
Let me qoute Dabrinko on the swedish PC Gamer magazine's forum. (translated ofcourse)

2D Boy can actually se how many of the IP-adresses actually continue playing. If thoose IP adresses are many more than the number of sold games that means there is people who have got the game illegaly and continue playing.

I also recommend everyone to read this article about piracy http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html
It´s long but please read it. He explains it better than anyone.

All personal use of so called copyright materials should be legal. The only thing that should be illegal is making money from other's original things, but never personal use. Music, film software, books text, all of it. The age and technology has changed. What old technology gave it now has taken away.

JamesStGeorge wrote:All personal use of so called copyright materials should be legal.

I don't agree with you. No offence but I don't believe people can take enough responsability to actually buy what they like, wich ultimatley undercredits the developers wich(IMO) have the right to realese their products for sale.

In my opinion computer literacy should be granted to everyone and personal use of software should be free and only commercial use should be upon payment.

So the hardware store should give out free tools as long as the costumers doesn't sell the things they make with that hammer?

No people shouldn't get paid for ever for a tiny bit of work done months or years ago. Anyone that does not want to be copied for personal use should not record in the first place and only work for their money instead, perform live only. The age of greed from farming so called 'rights' is going to have to end.

I am hoping to make a living from making computer games, is that not work according to you?
Also am I beeing greedy because I don't (and can't) preform live?

People with more money than time will rather pay money than spend time finding free copies. No file shared copy makes a penny difference to any game maker. If anything they generate free publicity and get a good game popularity.

I know for example through a friend who teaches at a college/university. That one of the other teachers spends his summer holiday working for Dreamworks computer 3d stuff. When asked where he learnt the answer was " like everyone else in the business on pirated software". The companies know, it serves their purpose not harms them. More people able to use their software, and more companies hiring those people will pay for it! They lose nothing at all by being pirated and even gain in the end.

Then in games we play the classic example here, no need to pirate it, one plays for free. There are sufficient players who find real world money easier and quicker to use to get on in the game and have what others work in game for, to fund it, even without adverts.

Remember games have been copied for all computer's existence, the game industry has boomed despite or even because of it.

JamesStGeorge wrote:People with more money than time will rather pay money than spend time finding free copies.

Well, nowadays it take less time to get an illegal copy than a legal one. When you get a legal copy (online) you have to transfer your money somehow, while getting an illegal one is as easy as clicking a link.

No file shared copy makes a penny difference to any game maker. If anything they generate free publicity and get a good game popularity.

This link: http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_5.html (or perhaps it is http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_6.html I don't really remember) explains that more people have good graphics cards than console gaming systems. Even than companies sell ten times more games on the consoles than on the PC. I don't see any other reason than the fact that it is harder to pirate a console game than a PC one.

Then in games we play the classic example here, no need to pirate it, one plays for free. There are sufficient players who find real world money easier and quicker to use to get on in the game and have what others work in game for, to fund it, even without adverts.

Yes, mmogs will never have the problem of being pirated, they controll the servers where the game is played and can make money from systems similar to the dubloon system.

Singleplayer games can't do that, anyone can play their game without contributing and get the exact same thing as someone who payed. I don't think that is fair, and I don't trust people to pay if they think it is good. If they wanted to just try the game they could just as well have tried a demo. (small note, games without demos actually deserve being pirated)

Remember games have been copied for all computer's existence, the game industry has boomed despite or even because of it.

Yes, but this is different. Back then someone could burn a CD and give it to his friends. Now he can crack a game and give it to a thousand strangers.

Just how am I supposed to compete with this kind of piracy? That is not a rethorical question, I would really like to know.

It is easier than getting a legal copy will ever be.
It is the exact same material, no quality loss.
If I use DMR they will remove it, makeing the pirated copy a better copy. But at least I will have increased sales for a couple of days.
If I don't use DMR my game is likley to be just as heavily pirated, in fact leading to economic loss. (see my point above about the console gaming market)

http://www.tweakguides.com/Piracy_1.html this article gives proof for everything I said. I recomend everyone interested in piracy, hell intersted in digital media at all, to read it.

I just want to make one thing clear, I am not mad at anyone and I like this discussion. I know I easily come of like that when I discuss things

i be poor in a rich mans world so if i want to enjoy what my neighbor flaunts i have the choice to liberate from the internet...
(key word here"choice")
life was easier when i lived in the bush....

Piratus wrote:Singleplayer games can't do that, anyone can play their game without contributing and get the exact same thing as someone who payed.

Offline games belong to the past. If you are concerned about piracy, then try developing online games where you can control the users' access. They can be MMOG or even single-player. You'll solve both the copyright and the distribution issues.
I also believe that a hybrid solution with free access and payment is very good for a MMOG. Free access increases the player base, which is a very sensitive issue for a multi-user environment. If your game is good, one day or another people will pay for it.
I have played Y!PP for free for over 2 years. The last month I have decided to buy dubs (20$) for the first time not because I really needed them, but rather because I thought it was fair towards the developers.

I totally agree with James. Free (illegal) distribution of software has helped a lot the software houses gaining fame. If a product is good people will appreciate it and will work with it, paying for a legal copy. If I worked with computer graphics I would have bought a legal copy of Photoshop for sure, but if I have never had the chance to try it out, how could I have learned to use it and to appreciate it? I actually believe software houses should do more for promoting computer literacy, because it's in their own interest.

Pishkirlin wrote:

Piratus wrote:Singleplayer games can't do that, anyone can play their game without contributing and get the exact same thing as someone who payed.

Offline games belong to the past. If you are concerned about piracy, then try developing online games where you can control the users' access.

If they belong to the past, how come they still sell 10 times as much on consoles?

They can be MMOG or even single-player. You'll solve both the copyright and the distribution issues.

I agree with you, forcing consumers to connect to a server for playing a game might be the only way to prevent piracy, even for a single player game. But that would be widley unpopular and become an excuse for piracy itself. People just don't like having to connect to a server to play singleplayer games and they will ofcourse try to crack the code and make it play without it.

I also believe that a hybrid solution with free access and payment is very good for a MMOG. Free access increases the player base, which is a very sensitive issue for a multi-user environment. If your game is good, one day or another people will pay for it.
I have played Y!PP for free for over 2 years. The last month I have decided to buy dubs (20$) for the first time not because I really needed them, but rather because I thought it was fair towards the developers.

That system works very well for MMOG, but unless a small company can get enough cash to hire a couple of people they will never be able to make and continue developing a good MMOG. And as I proved before, piracy do make companies loose money and make this harder. I am glad you decided to buy dubloons, but if there is no direct advantage to buying over pirating I belive most people will be parasites, or freeriders. Not contributing at all. My personal experience and proof I have already showed you point that way.

We don't have laws against stealing, for instance(i know pirating is not = stealing), because EVERYONE would steal if that law was not in effect. It is to prevent the minority who do.

I totally agree with James. Free (illegal) distribution of software has helped a lot the software houses gaining fame. If a product is good people will appreciate it and will work with it, paying for a legal copy. If I worked with computer graphics I would have bought a legal copy of Photoshop for sure, but if I have never had the chance to try it out, how could I have learned to use it and to appreciate it? I actually believe software houses should do more for promoting computer literacy, because it's in their own interest.

Really expensive programs such as photoshop for graphics and Reason for music is expensive since they are made for companies. I would like for thesee programs to have 2 kinds of licenses. One for commercial and one for personal use. The license for personal use could be free, or very cheap (say less than 10 dollars) to give every man legitemit acces to their software and to promote the product.

Ok guys. I understand the benefits of piracy and that it could be a potent weapong against crappy products. But from personal experience the actuall (non-paying) costumers behaviour doesn't allow it.

I have always loved videogames and as I may have said here before I have dreams of openening or work in a game development buisness. Seeing how many of my friends have almost stopped buying games at all and comments from my friends like "My mother say I shouldn't wish for computer games for chirstmas because I can jut download them" have made me grow up with a very bad and demoralizing view of piracy.

The rise ot the piracy party in sweden have made me really concerned about my future and the fact that many of the greatest game developers have abandoned the PC market for the 4-5 times more profitable console market (allthough there plenty more computers with decent graphics cards than there are consoles) speaks for itself.

I have no doubt there are mature users who buy things they like if they can, but they are clearly in minority. At least among the young (10-18 years old) people.

What I am trying to say is that the public is far from ready for legalised piracy and there are just too many freeriders for this work. I know laws will have a hard time reducing piracy and the corperations are already abusing it with insane bills, so I am hoping the educational system could teach children 10 years or older that piracy is really taking money from working peoples pockets.

After all this is not only a question about consumer right, but also about worker rights. If someone pirate a game and enjoy the game without paying for it they are in fact denying the workers of their income and in the long term their jobs will be in jeopardy as well.

Changing buisness models is not as easy as pirates say it is. If you make your game playable only from a server you are bound to get competition from pirated servers unless you make a large MMO. Wich is almost impossible for small corperations and indie gamers. Any other DRM is a waste of money unless you make hyped game wich will sell thousands of copies before the DRM is cracked. A game without DRM would be pirated, wich could be good for marketing, but if piracy wasn't avaliable there would be similar popular services for distributing demoversions of games also giving good marketing.

Direct streaming services (such as spotify) has done a great deal for the music and movie/tv industries, but it would very difficult make a similar service for games. Reduced framerate and lagg would make the gaming experience worse. Besides I am not sure it is technicaly possible to stream games directly.

I dont know, maybe consumer matures with time and stop abusing piracy. That gives a lot of hope, but the 10-16 year olds who are mostly freeriders, from my experience, are still a large chunk of the market.

Then in games we play the classic example here, no need to pirate it, one plays for free. There are sufficient players who find real world money easier and quicker to use to get on in the game and have what others work in game for, to fund it, even without adverts.

I just wish to quote this again. If few people buy dubs the dubloon prices will increase making it more lucrative to buy dubs. If few people buy games the prices have to go up to make a profit, making it less interesting to buy the game. They work in opposit ways.


Wow that was a lot, hope I didn't make to many typos.

I think this post and the topic it is in is pretty interesting:
http://forums.tweakguides.com/showpost.php?p=78191&postcount=23

It suggests that PC gaming is declining due to piracy.

The poster, Koroush Ghazi, is an exellent example of someone who is trying to make a living out of copyrighted works. He writes tweakguides for the PC and is depending on add income for revenue. Thus, he can't afford other people copying his guides to their own pages taking away potentiall traffic.
More info: http://www.tweakguides.com/FAQ.html#Q17

What I am trying to say is, copyright isn't just about mega rich companies farming their rights and abusing their costumers. The little guy seem to take almost just as much harm as the big one. I have seen my friends pirating 20$ games with 60 minutes demos made by small developers - completley throwing the "moral of piracy" out the window!

They could have tried it unlimited for free, so pirating just to try it was not their aim.
It only costed 20$ - not an expensive game if they tried they could have payed for it.
It was made by a small developer i.e the "they are already rich, so I need the money better" argument doesn't work here.
and - finally. They liked the game, a lot. One of them has almost played through the entire game (and it is not a short game), yet they don't care about paying.

I know some pirates are more responasble than this, and I respect that you guys are great, but as far as I can see most pirates don't pirate for any other reason than that they don't want to pay. Wich is not the same a theft, but it is a very unfair one-way transaction.

People with more money than time will rather pay money than spend time finding free copies. No file shared copy makes a penny difference to any game maker. If anything they generate free publicity and get a good game popularity.

The problem is, it is not hard to find free copies, in fact it is easier than to find legal copies.I know most people who pirate a product wouldn't have bought it anyway but you can't deny the fact that a lot people would have. It's human nature to want something for free, especially when you are not "taking" something. From what have seen, belive it or not, people pirate things they want i.e may very well have paid for if it wasn't available for free.

And, how in the seven seas would filesharing give good publicity if the people pirating aren't the same people who buy things? In the example above, about the 20$ game, someone watched him playing the game and decided to get a copy too. He didn't buy the game thoug, he only downloaded another illegal copy, so they earned nothing from the publicity. Both are playing and enjoying games they should have payed for, for free, and I fail to see how that doesn't make a difference.

You make a good point Pishk, at the beginning of the thread. "computer literacy should be granted to everyone.", but as far as I can see there are plenty of free software out there. So the loss wouldn't be that large, or am I wrong?

In conclusion, I understand your points, but I can't see the reality working that way. To few people actually care to credit the developers for it to work. If there is any evidence suggesting otherwise, be my guest

Sorry for spamming this thread. I have been thinking about the whole copyright thing for a long time and I feel I need to express it somewhere. I also appologize if I have said anything offensive

I now It's getting ridicilous how I am constantly double-posting here, but I don't feel this needs a new thread, so I will write here.

I have decided to stop learning how to program and make games. Why? Piracy.

It has been one of my greatest dreams since I first started playing PC games as a kid, to make a game of my own, to leave my mark in this rich medium and hopefully earn enough income to work full time and to perhaps hire a few people, make buisness and earn a buck. Unfortunatly, what was already a far fetched dream seems more and more unprobable every day.
I am not blind, I can see how my friends act, pirating everything and never giving anything in return and I have seen that certain game-torrents have more leechers at one point in time than the actual sales number for that game...
I find it hard to belive that piracy is some kind of Robin Hood- act, that the rich will pay and only poor people pirates. Or that people will pay if they like it, I can see my friends playing LAN games to hell and never thinking about buying a legal copy, while they will gladly fork over bucks to play World of Warcraft, for instance.

I am sorry, but I am not going to spend thousands of hours learning how to program and spend more time making games when I can expect little but donations in return, I will be better of spending that time doing something more fun, like actually playing games or something more usefull, like studying. Programming to me used to be a little bit of both, and that was why I spent time doing it. It felt usefull and a little fun.
But years and years of seeing how people behave when they pirate software and movies has really broken my spirit. I could count endless examples of games and movies people really enjoy but never spend a cent on supporting because they can have it free, it's just human nature.

There is nothing I can do about piracy, so I will simply not try. I am not going to waste my future so I will simply adapt to reality. I am sure you would have done the same and I think this is something pirates should think about. Copyright is not just about evil companies suing people, it exists for a reason. It is to make people feel safe in investing a lot of a time and money making creative (copyable) works. If I came to your workplace and told you that your paycheck from now on will have to rely on donations from your customers, would you say something like "Yes, that is totaly fair, I am being greedy and I am confident that people will do the right thing."? No, you would stand up and try to defend your rights as worker and if that didn't work you would quit your job and look for something else.

That is basicly what I have been doing, my voice won't change anything as there is basicly 100.000 times as many pro-piracy bloggers out there as there are pro-copyright ones. So I am giving up, when I will be ready to make my first games piracy will be even more widespread than it is today, more and more people will wonder why they keep paying for things when everyone around them can ge it for free.

Sorry for such a long post, but I am thinking about piracy a lot and when I get an oppertunity to express myself I have a lot to write down.

Piratus wrote:I have decided to stop learning how to program and make games. Why? Piracy.

Ok, piracy is an issue but I don't think you should be that concerned and stop pursuing your dream because of that. The fact that there are so many software houses around proves that the business is still profitable.

If you're passionate about game developing, pursue it. There are still quite a few avenues where games are profitable, in some, very much so. But I don't see how letting piracy determine whether you do something you love is going to benefit you. As Pish said, there are still quite a few houses which are profitable, despite piracy. And while you're learning, release it for free or very low-cost. If it's good, you might see considerably more reward (in a good job for a dream company) than you potentially could have lost to piracy.

tl;dr - Fuck piracy. Follow your dreams.

I guess you are right, I was overeacting. What matters is that I will have enough income to survive(and ideally expand my buisness), but the fact that most people are going to be freeriders on my work doesn't really help me.

Even if PC development don't work out it's still fairly easy to release an inde game on the popular consoles, wich are less affected by piracy.
So I will keep working, but I am still not convinced that it may be the right choice. I will wait and see, I will keep doing research and so.

i think the best thing to do is to keep trying. if it just doesn't work nomore, i would quit.
i also am developing a game with a few friends. a friend of mine already made an soundtrack, and logo! i am makling the story line we already have an intro!

the only thing is, we still need people that draws the pictures on paper, so we can put it into the game. and about the logo, i have been on youtube, and i found out that dozens of people already made the exactly the same logo! that will be going back to the drawing board

piratus, don't give up! that there is an case of piracy, doesn't has to mean it has to get a flop for your game! but i can't decide what you will do. it's your choice, i only can help you making it.

zaidwanted

You should make the games you want, even if it is as a hobby. If you thought less in terms of it as an income but following your interests you will probably be better off overall. Should the hobby turn out well then, and only then, consider letting it also become your living. Making your interest your work is not always as good as it sounds, you usually end up making what customers want as you need money, rather than what you aspire to. Also if the interest and work are all one, then if that fails due to fashion, commercial viability, you have lost all and have to start completely over, or be poor.

You make some good points. But I think you are underestimating how profits can motivate people.

I enjoy programming from time to time and learning how to make things work, but at times it feels like a chore like when my code won't work or when I have to read through a lot of text to make some new stuff work.

Future payment was a great motivation to actually go through that, I feelt that if I made some truly amazing games in the future (and my head was full of ideas - it still it) I could make a great deal fo money, but piracy cuts in to that money and it is on a massive scale right now.

But I think you are right, I should get back to my hobby and stop thinking to hard about the buisness aspect. I have many years to think about that, and if I can't make good games by then piracy won't be my worst problem

a friend of me plays WOW. he says you need to enter a new code every time to play the game, so hacking will be impossible.
maybe, when u finished making a game, put an special code in it that be example only works at the computer where it's installed for the very first time, but it does not run out.
it will be complicated to make such things, but if it DOES work, piracy is DOOMED!!!